Curse

Kariston The Swift · Apr 16, 2006, 10:17 AM // 10:17

You can use AoE every 3 seconds on a mob of enemies before they will scatter. How do I know? I use Zealots fire on my 55 monk build so I can kill mobs faster. Hit prot spirit wait three seconds then cast healing breeze.

Str0b0 · Apr 16, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

As regard to what I think should be done about this, I'd be satisfied with either making allied mobs flee from SS'd foes (making SS like MoP), or making allies not flee from MoP (making MoP like SS).

Then you should hope that if they do anything about this at all that they do the latter and not the former because as I've said at least five times now making them run from SS will not do anything significant. As others have pointed out the AoE field is mobile you can't really run from it. the strategy involved with using SS also precludes running as a valid option for reasons that I have explained over and over and over again.

If you want AI changes that make them behave like PvP Opponents than as I've also pointed out you make SS overpowered as a shutdown skill. That's what SS really is. It is the ultimate shutdown. The only problem is the enemy AI don't see it that way. ANet probably has thought about all of this before and they left it this way because either they would have to put almost every group in the game with some sort of hex removal or they would have to make them just stop doing anything at all which in turn makes it easy to tear them to pieces.

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Matsumi
I understand that thread title might be a bit confusing, but really you taking it into some irrelevant discussion. If you really care, create another thread something "really what DOT is" and I will be hapy to prove you my point there.

Jagflame · Apr 16, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

The reason why Barrage would not be nerfed by them running away from it is simple: Barrage isn't like a spell like fire storm where it has to recharge and use a lot of energy. If it were possible to recast fire storm at any moment then running away would not nerf it because you'd simply recast it as soon as the AIs came back.

Barrage is that way. You'd just hit barrage twice, watch as they all run, then hit it again as they come back. All it would do would be slow down the kill.

And the difference between MoP and SS has already been explained thoroughly, at least I thought, but I'll do it again. MoP is triggered directly as a result of the player's action whereas SS is triggered as a directly result of the monster's action.

Str0b0 · Apr 16, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

The reason why Barrage would not be nerfed by them running away from it is simple: Barrage isn't like a spell like fire storm where it has to recharge and use a lot of energy. If it were possible to recast fire storm at any moment then running away would not nerf it because you'd simply recast it as soon as the AIs came back.

Barrage is that way. You'd just hit barrage twice, watch as they all run, then hit it again as they come back. All it would do would be slow down the kill.

Quoted for truth and for the fact that causing SS to trigger the chicken run will accomplish the exact same thing.

Avarre · Apr 16, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

It would make no sense for barrage to be nerfed anyways, as it's a series of multiple attacks that each hit a single target and not a single attack that hits multiple enemies.

This is proven by barraging with empathy... you'll take 1 hit for each target you fire at.

Sorry if mentioned before

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

SS usage would go completely unnoticed if it weren't for the prior changes to Elementalist/Monk AoE.

that is true, but it is noticed now, since it makes single spell deal way more damage than dedicated damage dealers. Its a fair point, yet it doesnt mean nothing should be done about this.

Quote:

Ira,

It's obvious that you're upset about SS Necros and B/P Rangers farming places like SF and UW2. I know it's hard to get a group there because these skills seem like the only ones in demand. However, I think you're going at it from the wrong angle. Instead of asking for a nerf on more skills (which only leads to more people upset in the player base) it's better to ask for improved level design. Levels that are well designed are much harder to develop cookie-cutter groups for. Most players when given the choice would choose to have levels that required mixed/balanced groups.

But really, Im not asking for SS to do less damage. Im asking for enviroment to be smarter about taking the damage from SS, which is equivalent to what you said.

Also I have necro character and I often farm SF with it. Yet I am still convinced that SS is way overpowered. It is just so ridicilously easy and lame I cant stand it. Every newbie can cap SS and suddenly become good at this game and be accepted in every group. That also makes my value as pro SS necro less.

As for playing my ele: I can still go and farm both of those places with either guild or few people from my friends list. Problem is it will take much more time and frustration to do it, while rather inexperienced people can be that in half the time by using just one slot on their skillbar (im not saying that all SS or barragers are newbs, its just the build itself is very newb-friendly)

Quote:

Hope I don't go on your ignore list over this last comment. (Though you wouldn't be the first person to put me there.)

Cheers!

Not at all

lyra_song · Apr 16, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Barrage costs 5 (even less with expertise) energy, takes 1 second to use and has ZERO RECHARGE TIME. Whats that saying to you??

Barrage IS designed to be SPAMMABLE ATTACK.

Thats the go red engine-ing point.

Its not even an unconditional spammable attack. I solo farm with barrage. You have to have mobs positioned properly, they have to EXTREMELY close together, or you waste your shot.

Barrage is the cyclone axe and hundred blades for Rangers. If you nerf barrage, you have to nerf those skills too. Justs to be "fair"

Hell barrage isnt even much use in PvP, with a few specific exceptions: Killing ritualist spirits which are summoned too close together or using SoH and smiting an army of undead (only in FvF).

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

The reason why Barrage would not be nerfed by them running away from it is simple: Barrage isn't like a spell like fire storm where it has to recharge and use a lot of energy. If it were possible to recast fire storm at any moment then running away would not nerf it because you'd simply recast it as soon as the AIs came back.

so you saying crappy spell should be crappier because it is crappy in the first place?

Quote:

Barrage is that way. You'd just hit barrage twice, watch as they all run, then hit it again as they come back. All it would do would be slow down the kill.

... thus fixing the problem with fool-proofness of barrage build without nerfing it to hell.
Or... you could actually time the use of barrage and not make monsters run.

Quote:

And the difference between MoP and SS has already been explained thoroughly, at least I thought, but I'll do it again. MoP is triggered directly as a result of the player's action whereas SS is triggered as a directly result of the monster's action.

Yes, and both of those can be rather chaotic and conditional... This rather the technical reason why SS does not cause scattering and not the logical excuse for it not to.

Matsumi · Apr 16, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

QUOTE=Avarre]SS is not DoT. DoT means Damage over Time, meaning a spell, condition, or hex that results in continual damage directly from the spell, over a fixed period of time with the same damage dealt per integer (of /s).

Examples - conjure phantasm, firestorm

Not DoT - barrage, spiteful spirit

AoE fleeing isn't caused by DoT. It is caused by 2 AoE strikes within a period of 3 seconds.

That said, you're right that SS is pretty messed up to not trigger it. It still should cause fleeing if a monster is damaged by it twice in 3s. However, it's nice that it doesn't

[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

actually it is. Taking into account PvE side of discussion the damage is as continual as it gets, since mobs will continue attacking at the same rate no matter what.

I think it actually is quite relevant to this discussion... because once you understand more what types of damage there are in a game and know how to differentiate between them, it will all together give you a better understanding of why SS or barrage was not included with the AoE nerf. But then again, maybe it won't, I don't know. Since the dev's won't share any information on the subject.

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

I think you should get off your horse and stop insulting by assuming you know something better than I do. Quiet frankly I think I know damage types and what DOT is much better than you do, and will continue to think so untill you show me the opposite.

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Barrage costs 5 (even less with expertise) energy, takes 1 second to use and has ZERO RECHARGE TIME. Whats that saying to you??

Barrage IS designed to be SPAMMABLE ATTACK.

Thats the go red engine-ing point.

totaly agree.

Quote:

Its not even an unconditional spammable attack. I solo farm with barrage. You have to have mobs positioned properly, they have to EXTREMELY close together, or you waste your shot.

so pull them together and dont waste your shot.
Meteor shower works only on adjacent foes to, but it has 25 energy cost, 5 seconds cast time and 60 seconds recharge time, yet it is most effective nuke spell for elementalists. Now you telling me that if you waste 5 energy on 0 recharge time spell it will make you horribly useless... welcome to the ele world my friend

Quote:

Barrage is the cyclone axe and hundred blades for Rangers. If you nerf barrage, you have to nerf those skills too. Justs to be "fair"

By you loginc Barrage should have ~5 seconds recharge time. Which is fine with me to, but I think scattering effect is better, because it would actually separate skilled barragers from noob spammers, while increased recharge time would put a hard cap on everyone.
I think you still missing a point here, which I brough up more than once. Barrage does NOT have to cause scattering if you apply a little bit of tactics while using it, but definately should cause scattering if you simply marked "1" on your keyboard as "i win" button and jerking it non stop.

Str0b0 · Apr 16, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

I know I'm on ignore from old Ira there but I want to make this point as well. It should not be said that just because a build is easy to use, even ridiculously easy to use does not mean it lacks tactics. Tactics can either be preemptive or reactive. The best type of tactics are preemptive tactics but they can only be used when you have good intel. The ease of barrage and SS can be attributed to good intel applied to pre-emptive tactics. It's not a lack of skill or a lack of tactics. It's just a lack of reactive tactics because preemptive tactics applied with steam roller strategy is a recipe for success.

That being said I'd also like to define tactics a little better. A lot of people confuse strategy for tactics. Strategy is only an outline. Tactics is what fills it in. As Patton once said." Use steamroller strategy. Set your eyes on a mark and don't stop till you reach it, but in tactics do not be a steam roller. With tactics you attack weakness. You hold em by the nose and kick em in the pants." I think that is the finest definition of tactics ever. Tactics is attacking weakness either in the mechanics of the game, the enemy AI, player strategy or terrain. Barrage rangers and Ss necros are tactical characters.

lyra_song · Apr 16, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

I dont think changing mob AI will change how bad players will play.

The noob will always be a noob, thats why he/she is a noob. It has a mindset of stubborness, closemindedness and refusal to adjust to change.

Ive actually seen a barrage ranger using preparations with barrage, and using barrage on 1 target.

AI behaviour will NEVER change that. That is a PLAYER behaviour

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

I know I'm on ignore from old Ira there but I want to make this point as well. It should not be said that just because a build is easy to use, even ridiculously easy to use does not mean it lacks tactics. Tactics can either be preemptive or reactive. The best type of tactics are preemptive tactics but they can only be used when you have good intel. The ease of barrage and SS can be attributed to good intel applied to pre-emptive tactics. It's not a lack of skill or a lack of tactics. It's just a lack of reactive tactics because preemptive tactics applied with steam roller strategy is a recipe for success.

That being said I'd also like to define tactics a little better. A lot of people confuse strategy for tactics. Strategy is only an outline. Tactics is what fills it in. As Patton once said." Use steamroller strategy. Set your eyes on a mark and don't stop till you reach it, but in tactics do not be a steam roller. With tactics you attack weakness. You hold em by the nose and kick em in the pants." I think that is the finest definition of tactics ever. Tactics is attacking weakness either in the mechanics of the game, the enemy AI, player strategy or terrain. Barrage rangers and Ss necros are tactical characters.

"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease."

~Sun Tzu

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont think changing mob AI will change how bad players will play.

The noob will always be a noob, thats why he/she is a noob. It has a mindset of stubborness, closemindedness and refusal to adjust to change.

Ive actually seen a barrage ranger using preparations with barrage, and using barrage on 1 target.

AI behaviour will NEVER change that. That is a PLAYER behaviour

Im not tryin to change players, Im trying to change GW to be fair game, where reward proportional to skill and effort used (ot close to it).

lyra_song · Apr 16, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Im not tryin to change players, Im trying to change GW to be fair game, where reward proportional to skill and effort used (ot close to it).

Half of the whole process in GW is preparation of your skillbar.

The mindset to learn how to make a build and experiment and make it perfect for a specific application is what seperates the "noobs" from the "l33t".

But this game has a huge community. Secret super builds that took weeks to design and perfect become public. Then what? Do those builds suddenly lose the skill it took to design it? Some skill sets are so genius that some people consider them exploits.

Look at the FoW and UW warrior solo builds. The FoW ranger solo build.

Taking a shortcut and using an already existing build TAKES ZERO SKILL. How do you propose to fix this? Remove all GW community sites where builds are posted up?

Because that would TRULY seperate the bad players from the good players.

Good players would make the money, get the items, get the fame. Everyone else would be stuck wondering what their secrets would be.

Its going to happen. The wisdom of the sages will pass to the commoner. Even though he might abuse it.

Stabber · Apr 16, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

And the difference between MoP and SS has already been explained thoroughly, at least I thought, but I'll do it again. MoP is triggered directly as a result of the player's action whereas SS is triggered as a directly result of the monster's action.

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond as you clearly haven't read what I wrote about the difference between MoP and SS, but, in case you can see beyond the end of your nose, here it is again: MoP and SS are exactly the same to allies of the hexed foe. They are both AoE damage triggered by external circumstances for that ally. Therefore, the allies should flee from the hexed foe, as they do already in the case of MoP.

(Prediction: you will call me or my message retarded. Again.)

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

lyra_song
you will be suprised how many elementalists still using firestorm, cant kill shit even with decent skillbar and spam for energy every 30 seconds of the fight.

lyra_song · Apr 16, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

No i would not be surprised at all.

Ira Blinks · Apr 16, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

No i would not be surprised at all.

Then we agree that it all makes perfect sense. Difference is that ele (nuker in particular) profession is not fool-proof and actually requires decent amount of personal skill as well as awareness of team's actions to be even remotely effective, and SS or Barrager dont. There are two possible solutions to that:
1) change eles to be much easier to play
2) change rangers and necros to be harder to play
I prefer second.